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Spring/Damper systems

 
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Wiisass
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Joined: 09 Nov 2005
Posts: 131
Location: Philly

PostPosted: Fri Mar 17, 2006 5:41 am    Post subject: Spring/Damper systems Reply with quote

If you look in the Theory section of the forum, I explain my plans for designing and manufacturing coilover systems.

Currently, I am working on systems for the S13, MA70, JZA80 and Z33. These are the cars that I currently have access to. If I can get access to more cars I can put together a system for any car. The next cars I plan on doing are an S14 and AE86.

Each system will be designed to the individual car if specs are provided. If not, assumptions will be made based on average settings for that model car.

Base model systems will be non-adjustable. Although even the non-adjustable setup will be better tuned to the car than an entry level JDM coilover system. Rebound and compression adjustability will be offered as an option later on.

These systems are still under development, but I hope to be testing them by mid-summer and having them ready for sale before the end of the summer.

I will keep everyone updated on the progress. Thanks.

Tim
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sprinter666



Joined: 10 Nov 2005
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 30, 2006 1:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

you have access to a vast amount of corolla shit.. take what you need but need what you take.. email me if you want to fuck around after you are done with college/
ecoast666@aol.com
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Wiisass
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 02, 2006 4:42 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Awesome Petty, I was hoping you'd be in on helping me with this. But now I have to make some adjustments to my models for the solid rear.
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tErbo b00st



Joined: 24 Mar 2006
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 26, 2006 5:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

This sounds really good. Too bad I just bought Stance.

Do you have any price estimates?
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anthracite93



Joined: 09 Nov 2005
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Location: Langhorne, PA

PostPosted: Fri Apr 28, 2006 11:58 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Prices will be forthcoming, likely more towards June/July as we build a solid product base. We will be sure to keep you guys abreast of our progress.

Jim
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Wiisass
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Joined: 09 Nov 2005
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Location: Philly

PostPosted: Sat Apr 29, 2006 2:26 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The price range we're shooting for is right around the price of other entry level coilovers. Even though these won't be adjustable, they will be better valved and we will be able to rebuild and revalve these things easily for you. Like Jimmy said, we'll keep everyone updated as things progress.

Tim
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Eric C.



Joined: 14 Jul 2006
Posts: 2
Location: Newington, CT

PostPosted: Fri Jul 14, 2006 1:35 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi, I saw your article in the Drift and RWD Sport magazine. I'll keep a look out for when you come out with the susspension for the AE86. I've been shopping around from time to time for a coilover system that I won't have to modify the rear. It doesn't seem like anyone makes one. So I figured I'd just look for a regualar spring/shock combo. Right now I'm on Esprilar spring and Tokico Illuminas, which is alright for now. I do more track than drifting.
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Wiisass
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Joined: 09 Nov 2005
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 04, 2006 7:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Eric, I hope you liked the article. I will be starting work on the AE86 stuff probably in the next couple weeks. Once I move back up north in a week, I will be raiding Sprinter666's collection of AE86 stuff and hopefully figuring something out. I have some ideas, I just need to figure out what's going to work the best.

Tim
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Eric C.



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PostPosted: Sat Aug 05, 2006 1:35 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ok, thanks for the heads up.
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MistaTwo



Joined: 09 Mar 2007
Posts: 18
Location: Pittsburgh, PA / London, England

PostPosted: Mon Mar 12, 2007 4:16 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

hey just wondering on perhaps some springs/dampers on a sw20 MR2 hahaha. I'm running SilkRoad RM/A8's now, but they've since rusted and they werent the best either. So I'm lookin for some new shit to throw on. If it is a possibility, let me know what info you would need without actually having the car and I'll see what I can do!
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Wiisass
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 12, 2007 1:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I wish I could say that I could do it. But right now, I'm way behind where I want to be with all of this stuff. SW20's are struts front and rear right? So that just makes it more of a pain in the ass because struts are no fun. If they were shocks, it would make things a lot easier. So as of right now, I wouldn't count on me getting anywhere with it, but it could happen at some point down the road.

Tim
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MistaTwo



Joined: 09 Mar 2007
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Location: Pittsburgh, PA / London, England

PostPosted: Mon Mar 12, 2007 3:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

yea they are. hahaha and no worries i am not even anywhere near ready to get some. im still payin for school and tryin to figure out where im gonna work etc. so this wont be for ages, just wanted to throw it out there Razz
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Wiisass
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 13, 2007 12:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well the way I've been trying to design the things has been pretty modular. Using a standard strut or shock insert that can easily be valved for the application and then app specific upper and lower mounts. So once I get the actual damper done, the rest is pretty easy. I would just need installation ratios, weights, etc and then how it mounts to the chassis.
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AceInHole



Joined: 28 Mar 2007
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 28, 2007 10:07 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Wouldn't adjustability simply involve using ASN shocks instead of the SN's? Was browsing the Bilstein catalogue and saw that external resevoirs are available for those too Razz

Anything special you're using for strut setups?

I'll probably hit you up on AIM later since I'm in desperate need of a new shock setup, and am trying to avoid the Stance stuff while wanting some Moton Clubsports....
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Wiisass
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 05, 2007 10:42 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The ASN's are just the aluminum bodied take apart dampers. Adjustability for those or the SN dampers can be had by changing out the shaft, piston, shims and rod guide. It's a larger shaft with probably a needle valve in the middle. At least that's how it used to be, it may be different with the two new adjustable shafts, I need to get in touch with Bilstein and get some more information.

I hadn't seen the new(er) bilstein catalog until you posted, but it's real nice that they finally have compression adjusters. Now I just need to find out if the price on those are as good as their pricing on other stuff. If they're the same price as penske adjusters then I don't know if they would be worth it.

For the struts, I'm had a design that would use bilstein internals and custom bodies for everything. I'm still working on that design. I was going to use 46mm pistons/shims/etc, but then I would need to use a larger spring and I would be taking up too much of the space left under there. So I'm looking into 36mm piston/shim availability, and then I can use a smaller spring and the packaging will just work out better.

I wish there was an easier way to do the struts. I know there's an bilstein strut available but then heights would be weird and it would be designed for stock travel and it would probably end up being just as much work to modify everything as it would to get other stuff made.

You're still toying with the idea of getting the motons? I really want Sasha to get his car running and test out the stance 3-ways. I would also like to see the dyno plots, but I'm not holding my breath for that to happen.
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AceInHole



Joined: 28 Mar 2007
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 05, 2007 1:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

It's gonna come down to Moton Clubsports or the Stance GR3's (which are half the price). I'm sketchy on the GR3's being any better than the GR+, really, but who knows. There's also the KSport 2-way Circuit Pros in the works, as well, which may throw another option out there.


BTW: did you ever get a chance to take apart that D2 shock? Mine are pretty much dead (one adjuster doesnt work and the collars are seizing with age/ abuse). I'm still debating the feasability of just adjusting the shim stacks on what I have.... so I can wait longer and get Motons in the end.
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Wiisass
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 05, 2007 3:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Isn't that Full Race S14 running the Ksport stuff with good results? I mean that doesn't mean that they're great or anything, it just means that they can work.

With the Motons, most likely you'll be real happy with them besides the added cost. With the stances, I really don't know. I mean I like the idea of 3-way adjustable dampers, but I don't know if the execution matched the intent. And those quick disconnects worry me a little. I mean they could be fine but I could see them leaking or losing fluid when taken apart. And with them and the Ksports, you don't really know how well the adjusters are going to work and if they're worth the extra money. I would hope you could trust the Motons, I don't know if you can get dyno plots from them for thier stuff.

I never got around to taking apart the D2 shocks. I had the Matco guy looking for a tool to use to get them apart without messing up the body. And he forgot or I forgot or something and never got around to doing it. But now that you reminded me, I'll try and look at it sometime in the near future.
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AceInHole



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PostPosted: Mon Apr 09, 2007 6:51 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Wiisass wrote:
Isn't that Full Race S14 running the Ksport stuff with good results? I mean that doesn't mean that they're great or anything, it just means that they can work.

Yeah, it's tough since the only thing these shocks ever get compared to are JDM crap, where its likely that they won't hold a candle to a race setup. The thing I'd wonder, though, is how badly you can really "screw up" a damper and adjuster, to the point where it can't be re-worked into something useable.

Quote:
With the Motons, most likely you'll be real happy with them besides the added cost. With the stances, I really don't know. I mean I like the idea of 3-way adjustable dampers, but I don't know if the execution matched the intent. And those quick disconnects worry me a little. I mean they could be fine but I could see them leaking or losing fluid when taken apart. And with them and the Ksports, you don't really know how well the adjusters are going to work and if they're worth the extra money. I would hope you could trust the Motons, I don't know if you can get dyno plots from them for thier stuff.

The only problem with the motons is the lack of droop adjustability (although that shouldn't be as much of a concern as actual damping). The nice thing about the Motons is the huge range of adjustability, and their reputation for handling the "little stuff", which is going to be a huge factor for autocross (where surfaces are never perfect).

Quote:
I never got around to taking apart the D2 shocks. I had the Matco guy looking for a tool to use to get them apart without messing up the body. And he forgot or I forgot or something and never got around to doing it. But now that you reminded me, I'll try and look at it sometime in the near future.
IIRC it wouldn't be hard to make a tool for them. The end caps look like they'd take a couple dowel pins. You'd just need a peice of metal stock with a handle and two pins pressed in. If I can get mine replaced I'll see what I can come up with. I'm really curious as to the internals of these and other shocks (I'm surprized there's no exploded views of ANY of the "new" dampers like KSport, Stance, D2, KTS, etc.)
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Wiisass
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 12, 2007 6:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

In regards to how bad you can screw up a damper, it is just a fluid chamber with passages. And if you can just revalve it using different shims then they can be made to work, but if the piston design is crap then they're going to be a lot more work than they're worth.

Do you mean droop adjustability in just the way that they're only single height adjustable? If so, depending on the actual length of the damper and what you would want the actual length to be, it shouldn't be too bad. If they're far off, then it could be a problem, which may just call for an extra helper spring.

The tool to take them apart wouldn't be too bad to make, I just never got around to making it and I was hoping the tool guy would find me something better to use. I had an adjustable pin wrench that wasn't strong enough to open up the top of the damper. The wrench actually bent in half when I was trying to take it apart.

If you want to see some internals, I did get a Silkroad RMA8 front damper apart. Here's some pictures of what came out, I can say, I wasn't too impressed with what I saw.
http://www.theoryinpracticeengineering.com/gallery/rma8/
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AceInHole



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PostPosted: Fri Apr 13, 2007 7:08 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I wonder how hard it'd be to do your own "wet kit" and convert cheaper shocks to something using more common parts... How does that piston compare to the bilstein hardware?
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Wiisass
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 13, 2007 1:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The startup for making a wet kit would be the hardest part. Depending on what size piston the other stuff uses, you could use more easily available bilstein stuff. If they use a weird size piston, you'd have to either accept that piston and just have shims made or make a new piston and still make new shims. But making pistons isn't something I would want to get into just yet. And then you may have to modify the dampers so they could be charged. The silkroad damper just had a screw that kept the gas in the chamber instead of a real valve. So if would need something else if you don't have access to whatever machines they originally used to fill them.

As for the piston, it's a very simple design. Big holes for compression, little holes for rebound. It looks like a more rudimentary version of the piston that came out of some mountain bike dampers I was using on the FSAE car a couple years back. And the shim stack, if you could even really call it that wasn't too impressive. All the shims were the same OD and thickness and that just doesn't lend well to good damping control.


This is the Bilstein piston and shim stack that I had used in the supra dampers. The piston was the same on both sides, so I could adjust the ratio between compression and rebound with the shims. Also with this shim stack design each shim affected a different part of the curve. So on the silkroad, changing the number of shims would just change the overall stiffness.

But I think the Silkroad did use a 36mm piston and if the shaft size is the same as the bilstein shaft, then it could probably be swapped.
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